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Just lately I sat down nearly with skilled chemical course of engineer Paul Martin of Spitfire Analysis on my podcast Redefining Power – Tech to debate how a lot industrial warmth might be changed with electrical warmth applied sciences (tl’dr: nearly all of it immediately). Within the theme of offering transcripts of shows I’m giving in varied locations for individuals who choose the written phrase, that is the flippantly edited transcript of the primary half of our dialog.
Michael Barnard (MB): Hello, welcome again to Redefining Power – Tech. I’m your host, Michael Barnard, and as we speak I’ve Paul Martin again. Father Paul, as a shopper was simply sharing with me, and as we speak we’re not going to spend an hour and a half slamming hydrogen for power. It might come up. We’re going to speak about industrial warmth and particularly electrification of commercial warmth in all its glory. I’ll give the transient abstract on Paul after which he can clarify extra. Paul’s been utilizing electrical warmth for industrial processes professionally for many years, constructing massive modular chemical engineering crops. He makes use of electrical energy till he doesn’t must due to enterprise instances. So, Paul, welcome again. And as at all times, inform the individuals who simply don’t know you but why they need to know you.
Paul Martin (PM): Properly, thanks for the introduction. I’m a chemical engineer with about three a long time of expertise working largely within the chemical course of improvement area. So designing for 26 years, designing and constructing pilot and demonstration scale crops for the world’s new chemical course of applied sciences in power and chemical substances, in supplies, in major metals and like. And what’s my qualification for as we speak’s dialogue? Properly, I’ve designed and constructed and been concerned within the design and building of an ideal many course of crops for each form of course of that you can imagine.
In that historical past and people dozens and dozens of crops that I’ve been concerned in, we used fireplace to make warmth in precisely one among them, and all of the others offered their warmth via electrical energy, or in a single different case via electrical energy not directly by advantage of doing work on the factor that had been attempting to warmth up. So principally working a polymer materials by way of an extruder that was designed to warmth it up in addition to transfer it. In order that’s my expertise. An extended checklist of initiatives the place we used electrical energy for warmth as a result of on the pilot and demonstration scale, fireplace is harmful. It’s sophisticated and it doesn’t save sufficient cash by utilizing a less expensive gasoline versus dearer electrical energy to benefit the capital price of utilizing fireplace.
MB: So we don’t use fireplace, however that doesn’t imply the crops, once they’re inbuilt scale, don’t use fireplace.
PM: That’s appropriate. The rationale we use fireplace in business is that if we’re going to make electrical energy utilizing fireplace, it will be loopy to make use of that electrical energy to make warmth. Though we try this in sure situations, sure functions, electrical heating remains to be used the place it is smart, although we’re going by way of this sort of ridiculous path of taking chemical power from petroleum or pure fuel, changing it into warmth, after which utilizing that to make electrical energy, after which transmitting the electrical energy, after which utilizing electrical energy to make warmth once more in a resistance heater. It appears nuts, however we try this when it offers an effectiveness profit. However after all, in a decarbonized future, we’re not going to be burning chemical power to make warmth, and we’re going to be beginning with electrical energy.
And it will likely be simply as dumb to take electrical energy and use it to make a gasoline, which you then use to make warmth, as a substitute of simply utilizing the electrical energy to make warmth, both immediately or by warmth pumping.
MB: So let’s begin with exergy 101. You already know, speak about exergy and this topic, simply because most individuals don’t get this but.
PM: Certain, that is the place Father Paul will get to evangelise just a little bit about committing sins towards the legal guidelines of thermodynamics. Exergy is form of a sophisticated matter, and it’s not taught very effectively, even in college, but it surely’s actually easy to grasp. Principally, exergy is the potential of a unit of power to do work, to supply mechanical power, as an illustration, to maneuver one thing round. And the exergy potential of a unit of power varies relying on what it’s. So the exergy potential of a unit of electrical energy is admittedly excessive as a result of we are able to convert electrical energy with excessive effectivity into no matter we would like, no matter different type of power we would like, with moderately excessive effectivity. The exergy potential of a unit of warmth is dependent upon how sizzling it’s and the way chilly the environment are.
It is dependent upon the distinction in temperature between the recent place and the chilly place. If I’ve a unit of warmth power at room temperature, and I don’t must maintain the room heat, in truth, I must pump warmth out of the room to maintain it snug, that has no exergy related to it. It’s in truth, worse than nugatory. The analogy I like to make use of with respect to varieties of power and their exergy potential is evaluating them to currencies. If I say that I’ve $100, that’s nice, but it surely’s not adequate data. I haven’t advised you whether or not I’ve 100 Jamaican {dollars} or CAD 100 or 100 American {dollars}. And the exergy potential of a unit of power is rather like that.
Simply because one thing is a unit of power measured in joules, doesn’t imply it’s value the identical. Identical to if I’ve a greenback and I don’t let you know what sort of greenback I’ve. I don’t essentially convey to you ways a lot worth I’ve in my hand or my pocket. The actually cool factor about exergy is, when you have pure exergy, like electrical energy, you need to use it to do work. The actually cool factor about that truth is, not solely are you able to do helpful work, like shifting issues round, you can even use it to maneuver warmth round in the wrong way to the best way it usually flows. You’ll be able to pump warmth out of your beer and use it to cook dinner your eggs, when you so need. Now, you possibly can’t try this totally free.
You’ll be able to’t simply change the path that warmth flows spontaneously. It’s a must to do work to be able to pump the warmth out of your eggs and use it to cook dinner one thing else or out of your beer and use it to cook dinner your eggs. That doesn’t occur spontaneously. Anyone who says that it does is committing a sin towards the second legislation of thermodynamics. And thou shalt not sin towards the second legislation. The second legislation is necessary.
MB: Yet one more factor to say, simply to make it actually clear. Electrical energy has excessive power, but it surely additionally, when you want warmth, it additionally turns immediately into this one unit of warmth.
PM: Yeah, thermodynamics doesn’t stop you from changing pure exergy to pure warmth with 100% effectivity. Now, in follow, if you’d like actually excessive temperature warmth, hundreds of levels, the practicality of constructing that warmth with gadgets that survive beneath these circumstances do typically contain some losses, like electrical change gear losses, or making electromagnetic radiation of another variety that doesn’t find yourself as warmth in your machine or no matter. However, you realize, these losses are usually pretty small. So, yeah, the worst you are able to do with a unit of exergy is flip it right into a unit of warmth at any temperature you need, which is the factor that I believe individuals miss.
MB: Let’s begin speaking about temperatures of warmth and chemical processes. Let’s discuss nearly stuff beneath 200 levels. I’m not an expert industrial engineer or chemical course of engineer. I simply respect it and perceive it effectively sufficient that you just don’t hate me after I say stuff about it. I believe that’s the easiest way to explain Paul’s opinion about my STEM competence. He appreciates the truth that I attempt.
PM: Properly, you attempt more durable than most individuals, Michael. You do extra with much less preparation than most individuals do, I can let you know that. The factor concerning the temperature.
MB: Yeah, beneath 200 levels, how do you separate that out? How do you separate out beneath 200 levels as an expert?
PM: Properly, there’s truly two items to this. This, by the best way, is all of consolation heating, the heating that we use to be able to maintain ourselves heat in chilly climates. And a big fraction which varies from place to put. However someplace on the order of about 40% of the joules of commercial heating which can be used at temperatures beneath 200 levels C. And why is 200 levels C a magic quantity? Properly, it form of isn’t. As I discussed, there’s two items to this piece. Primary is the higher temperature, and that has to do with practicalities of shifting warmth round with warmth pumps, which we’ll speak about in a minute. However the different one which’s truly extra necessary is what we’d check with in a warmth pumping scenario as temperature raise.
Clearly, warmth naturally flows from sizzling issues to chilly issues, as a result of the molecules within the sizzling factor trigger the molecules within the chilly factor to jiggle round sooner, and warmth is transferred that manner, if you’ll. An ideal instance can be, let’s say that I’ve a distillation that I’m working. I need to boil one thing, trigger it to kind a vapor, after which contact that vapor with liquid that I condense on the high of a distillation column, and by the interplay of the vapor with the liquid, trigger issues that boil at decrease temperatures to go away with the condensate from the highest of the column and issues with increased boiling factors to remain within the backside of the column.
In that occasion, nearly each joule that I put into the boiler on the backside of that distillation column comes again out the condenser once more simply at a decrease temperature. Now, after all, we are able to’t trigger the warmth that we’re rejecting to cooling water, typically within the condenser, to leap up in temperature of its personal accord to be sizzling sufficient to warmth up the boiler. However we are able to use work to pump warmth from the condenser again into the boiler. And we are able to try this one among two methods. A technique is by utilizing a refrigerant and compressing it after which cooling that refrigerant and inflicting it to condense. That’s principally the method of refrigeration that we use in fridges and air conditioners and issues like that.
That form of a course of tends to have an higher temperature restrict of about 200 levels C on the recent facet, as a result of the recent stuff that comes out has to return out hotter than that from a compressor. Compressors are made out of supplies of building, and at increased temperatures, these supplies of building begin to turn out to be troublesome. And in addition the working fluid, the factor that we’re utilizing, the refrigerant that we’re utilizing to do that compression and condensation and evaporation cycle, tends to, there are extra decisions at decrease pressures and so forth at decrease temperatures than there are at increased temperatures. However the different manner that we are able to do that is we are able to use the method fluid because the refrigerant.
So, within the case of the distillation column, what we are able to do is, on the high of the column, as a substitute of condensing the vapor, we are able to feed the vapor right into a compressor, and the compressor will then improve the stress of that vapor and won’t trigger it to condense. The truth is, it can at all times superheat that vapor. Regardless that the stress goes up, it can put some power into that vapor that can outcome within the vapor being superheated, which means it received’t be able to condense till it cools a bit. We will then take that sizzling vapor at increased stress and put it into the boiler of our distillation column and use it to trigger boiling.
As that vapor condenses at its new increased stress, and therefore increased temperature, it can switch warmth into the liquid within the reboiler and trigger that liquid to kind the vapor. We’re truly utilizing the method fluid because the refrigerant. We’re doing this compression, condensation, after which evaporation cycle to be able to pump warmth round. That has a particular identify, and it’s known as mechanical vapor recompression. The great factor about all of those schemes, whether or not they be utilizing a refrigerant for standard warmth pumping, or whether or not they use the method fluid because the refrigerant in mechanical vapor recompression, they provide us what’s known as a coefficient of efficiency.
What coefficient of efficiency means, in easy phrases, is it’s what number of joules of warmth I get to maneuver from the chilly place to the recent place in return for what number of joules {of electrical} power that I feed in. So, if, for example, I feed one joule of electrical energy to a warmth pump, and in return for that one joule of labor, I get three joules of warmth to maneuver from the chilly place to the recent place, I’ve a coefficient of efficiency of three divided by one, which is three. And with mechanical vapor recompression, you will get, relying on how excessive a distinction there’s between the recent place and the chilly place, that temperature raise, as they name it, you will get coefficients of efficiency which can be very excessive, like 5 or extra. That’s fairly cool.
You already know, not fairly often are you able to, with a straight face, say that you’ve a course of that has an effectivity, if you wish to name it that, of 500%, and never be a liar or a grifter or a thief or no matter. So, yeah, anyway, low temperature processes, which make up about 40%, and in some locations, greater than 60% of the joules of warmth that we transfer round, are usually inside attain of warmth pumping schemes, whether or not they be standard warmth pumps or mechanical vapor recompression. Consequently, they’re going to be very straightforward to impress, which means cheap to impress. By way of working price, relative. Nonetheless, that’s relative to utilizing electrical energy on to make warmth.
It’s not relative to burning fuels, as a result of proper now we’ve got this large ambiance that we dump stuff into totally free or practically free, and we expect that’s, you realize, deal. After all it’s not. It’s. It’s principally robbing Michael to pay Paul, as an illustration, if you’ll.
Properly, truly, on this case, we’re robbing ourselves and pretending that we’re paying ourselves, as a result of we’re principally ruining the local weather for future generations by our stupidity. So on the finish of the day, we’ve got to determine the distinction between price and worth and do the precise factor. After we get round to doing that, the excellent news is expertise goes to be there to assist us, on this specific occasion, for that chunk of warmth beneath 200 levels C, and particularly the place warmth is being rejected to a cooling medium, and we have to put warmth into one thing else. We will couple the 2, whether or not they’re in the identical course of, like distillation, or they’re in numerous processes, it’s going to be truly fairly straightforward. It’s routine chemical engineering. It’s not tough to do.
The rationale we don’t do it’s that burning stuff is reasonable, proper?
MB: Two issues right here. One is that beneath 200 levels, that’s nonetheless steam forming, water is boiling at these temperatures. Simply so anyone who’s missed that a part of the dialog, that is Celsius, not Fahrenheit.
PM: We don’t converse Fahrenheit.
MB: No, whereas we’re speaking thermodynamics, we’re not going to make use of the Fahrenheit scale. Thermodynamics, Kelvin. That is Celsius. That’s assertion one.
PM: That’s proper.
MB: Boiling water. We’re effectively above the purpose of boiling water. The second factor, although, inform us, you’ve mentioned distillation column, which in your thoughts, you’ve in all probability constructed dozens of those, once more, for various issues. However give some examples of distillation columns, like begin with the oil and fuel business.
PM: The place we actually ought to begin is making whiskey or vodka, no matter your drink occurs to be. Fermentation of no matter you’re beginning with provides you a mix of water and ethanol and another molecules, a few of that are dangerous, offer you a nasty hangover, or might even make you go blind, or worse, trigger most cancers and different issues. We need to separate that combination, and we need to put the good things in a bottle and drink that, and we would like the dangerous stuff to go away. That separation course of that’s used is distillation. We boil the liquid, and the sunshine vapors that come off first include some nasty molecules. We condense these and throw these away, after which we begin getting the good things, and we accumulate these, and we name that the hearts of the distillation.
Ultimately we begin getting stuff that begins to style like cardboard or moist canine or issues like that. We name these the tails, and we’d throw these into the following batch. That’s a batch distillation. Most industrial processes don’t do distillations in batch. They do them constantly. They’ll feed a mix to the center of a distillation column. They’ll constantly boil stuff up on the backside and constantly take stuff that doesn’t boil away from the underside. At varied factors up the column, they may take off issues of worth, and so they’ll try this on a steady foundation. An instance of that’s petroleum distillation, the place we truly do, effectively, plenty of distillations, however two major ones. First we do, we take crude oil and we desalt it, after which we distill it at atmospheric stress.
The stuff that doesn’t boil at atmospheric stress, we feed to a vacuum distillation column. We truly decrease the stress in order that we are able to decrease the boiling level of assorted species. The very backside of that column, of the vacuum distillation column, we name residuum, or resid. That’s the principally liquid tar, the very backside of the barrel that we use to feed to ships. We nonetheless use it for highway tar and roofing tar and issues like that. There are tons and plenty of distillations in chemical crops which can be separating invaluable merchandise from feedstocks or merchandise from response mixtures and so forth. They’re used in all places. They use an amazing quantity of warmth, and most of them reject their warmth to a cooling medium..
We chemical engineers are pretty sensible about utilizing this sizzling stream to warmth up one other stream and therefore settle down the recent factor that we don’t need to be sizzling anymore. We’ll do cross change from place to put at any time when that’s sensible, and we’ll have entire warmth networks arrange. That’s truly the place the steam enterprise comes from. You had been speaking about steam a minute in the past. Numerous the rationale that we use steam is as a manner steam turns into form of a forex for shifting warmth round. It’s used to permit us, as an illustration, to extract warmth from one course of and switch it into one other not directly, with out the 2 streams having to return involved with each other and even share the identical area within the warmth exchanger, although they’re separated by steel from each other.
The steam acts as a form of a transport medium for that warmth. Numerous that steam use arises, not as a result of we actually want steam, however as a result of once you burn issues, you at all times find yourself with this sizzling flue fuel that it’s a must to eliminate. That sizzling flue fuel, to be able to keep away from throwing it away, you set it by way of coils and use it to make steam. Otherwise you put coils of boiling water within the flue fuel in one thing known as a warmth restoration steam generator, and you employ that to extract warmth from that flue fuel earlier than it goes on to the ambiance.
In a decarbonized future, loads of the steam enterprise that we’re utilizing proper now will go away, and all of its nuisance and capital price and working price and upkeep price and corrosion and blah, blah, blah, will go away. Truthfully, in these small crops that I constructed for a lot of a long time, that was one of many massive causes we used electrical heating, as a result of we hated steam. Steam is a nightmare. It’s a nuisance, and when you don’t want to make use of it, you don’t use it.
MB: However let’s simply do some fundamental thermodynamics training. Why does steam include a lot extra warmth than water?
PM: Properly, I wouldn’t say that, the best way I’d say it’s this. The great factor about steam is that you may switch loads of warmth at a continuing temperature. At a given stress, water vapor condenses at a given temperature. If you happen to begin out with pure steam, you possibly can reject warmth from that steam and progressively kind condensate till the entire steam is gone and the temperature received’t change. That what’s known as latent warmth of vaporization, or of condensation, when you consider it the opposite manner, that’s extraordinarily invaluable, as a result of it permits a small quantity of matter shifting round to be able to switch a really great amount of warmth.
If you wish to try this with what we name smart warmth, which is, as an illustration, let’s say we’ve got water that we warmth as much as 80 levels C, and we let it drop again right down to 40 levels C by heating different issues up. We have now to maneuver loads of matter round to be able to cope with solely that smart warmth. If we, as an illustration, as a substitute have atmospheric stress, steam, or higher nonetheless, you realize, steam at about one 1 bar or 1 atm above atmospheric stress, and we condense that, we’re shifting an terrible lot extra warmth with an terrible lot much less matter. That’s factor. It makes the carrying of warmth from place to put extra environment friendly.
MB: Paul’s downside is that he’s forgotten greater than most individuals have ever discovered about thermodynamics. So I’m going to step again to a extremely fundamental assertion, one thing that escaped scientists for hundreds of years, which is once you warmth water up, it will get to 100 levels celsius after which stops for a very long time. Extra warmth is poured into it till the part change happens. So, identical with once you freeze it, you get it right down to a sure temperature, and it simply stays at zero celsius for a very long time, till ice crystals begin to kind. And in order that stuff about that latent warmth of vaporization, and Paul is ready to appropriate me, I do know, however when he’s speaking concerning the steam at 100 levels, steam simply sits there and emits warmth for a very long time because it slowly turns to water, after which the water will get cooler.
However at that part change boundaries, the temperature persists for a very long time. So now do the completely different, higher nuanced model of that, Paul, as a result of individuals don’t know that.
PM: No, I believe the second manner you set it was just a little clearer. What doesn’t occur is we don’t put power into water at 100 levels C and don’t have anything occur and the temperature not go up. What does occur is as soon as we’re at 100 levels C, if we’re atmospheric stress, as we put warmth in, that warmth doesn’t go into elevating the temperature. It goes into boiling water and turning it into steam. The temperature doesn’t change, however the part modifications. The water molecules that was once bouncing round subsequent to at least one one other in a liquid at the moment are bouncing round far other than each other in a vapor part. Till each drop of water is gone, the temperature just isn’t going to extend. The identical is true on the reverse.
If you happen to take a cloud of steam and it’s at fixed stress, it can condense at fixed temperature till the entire steam is gone. And we’ve got liquid if the stress is held consistently. That is the wonderful thing about steam. There are many different issues that we are able to use instead of water. I imply, we use water as a result of water occurs to have an unbelievable warmth of vaporization, and it’s additionally unhazardous and ample and really low-cost. However we, within the course of, business, we use different molecules to switch warmth as vaporization power and condensation power at increased temperatures with decrease pressures, for example. So we’ll use these molecules that Dow has formulated that they name Dow therms.
There are numerous Dow therms which can be used as sizzling oils, liquids that you just simply warmth up and funky down and use the smart warmth. There are different Dow therms that you just use for his or her vaporization. What that enables us to do is to go as much as increased temperatures with out going as much as very excessive pressures. There’s some hope, by the best way, this 200 levels C factor, it might simply be 300 levels C. That’s actually a matter for innovation and modifications to tools and using various things, like molecules like these Dow therms for example, as a substitute of utilizing issues like water vapor or CO2 or the like.
We will push that envelope just a little bit, however we’re not going to 400 levels C as a result of at 400 levels C, natural molecules begin falling aside too rapidly for us to love.
MB: Let’s speak about this, as a result of that is necessary. Lots of people say, effectively, at 200 diploma warmth, that stuff’s all expertise readiness degree six or seven. It’s probably not commercialized. It’s probably not right here. How do you reply to individuals who say that, Paul?
PM: Oh, my goodness. I’d say that they simply aren’t paying consideration. There’s a distinction between one thing that has a low expertise readiness degree as a result of individuals haven’t finished it earlier than, and one thing that has a low expertise, obvious expertise readiness degree, as a result of it doesn’t have a market. There’s an enormous distinction between these two issues. I imply, warmth pumping is routine. All people’s obtained a warmth pump or a number of of them of their home already. They’ve obtained a fridge and a freezer, and so they’ve obtained an air conditioner, and there’s nothing magic about them. They serve a objective, and folks roughly see the field and don’t perceive what’s occurring inside till they must name the restore individual to return repair it. Warmth pumping is, you realize, the best expertise readiness degree you possibly can think about.
Can we use warmth pumping in business? Certain, we do. Typically for cooling issues, not for heating issues. Why? As a result of burning stuff’s low-cost, when you can dump stuff to the ambiance totally free. When that paradigm shifts, like a light-weight change, every kind of operations the place persons are boiling issues, cooking issues, drying issues, and so on., will, like a light-weight change over from burning stuff to make that warmth to utilizing electrical energy to make that warmth in this sort of warmth pumping manner. These will occur first as a result of they’ll be cheaper. As soon as we get above that quantity, 200 to 300 levels C, and we’re into problem with warmth pumping, now we’re into decrease effectivity approaches. By decrease effectivity, I imply not higher than 100%.
MB: Pure fuel burning stuff isn’t 100% both, as a result of it’s a must to extract it, course of it, distribute it, after which there’s methane slippage, I’ve found in burning methane. It’s not a one for one. Electrical energy is definitely extra environment friendly on a one to at least one foundation. The effectivity of electrical energy turning to warmth is increased than the effectivity finish to finish of the choice, so long as we’re not burning stuff to create the electrical energy within the first place.
PM: To not bore individuals, however there’s an necessary little distinction right here, and this can be a downside that individuals run into. I discover this an issue, even amongst engineers, that we’ve got two sorts of warmth from burning stuff, metrics that we use. One among them is named the upper heating worth, and the opposite is named the decrease heating worth. Why do we’ve got to have two? Then, after all, we’ve got two completely different names. We are going to name the upper heating worth the gross heating worth and the decrease heating worth than internet heating worth. What a large number.
The factor that’s concerned right here is that in some instances, we are able to wring each little bit of warmth out of the burning, out of the merchandise of the burning, by condensing the water vapor that’s fashioned once we burn methane, as an illustration, we get CO2 and we get water vapor. If we are able to condense the water and produce water liquid, we get the warmth of vaporization of that water again. Whenever you take the feed supplies and we allow them to burn, after which we cool every thing right down to 25 levels C, the online quantity of warmth that we get is what’s known as the gross or the upper heating worth, as a result of we’ve extracted each little bit, together with that warmth of condensation. That’s the precise metric that we use once we’re consolation heating.
If you happen to say that you’ve a pure fuel boiler or water heater just like the one in my home, that has annual gasoline utilization effectivity of 95%, that’s relative to the upper heating worth of the pure fuel that’s being fed. For each joule value of upper heating worth of pure fuel that’s fed to my boiler, I get 0.95 joules of warmth in my home. That features condensing and cooling down the water of combustion. But when I need to use gasoline to warmth up one thing to 200 or 300 levels C, the warmth of vaporization of the water just isn’t accessible to me. It’s gone, it’s misplaced. Now what we do is as a substitute of fascinated with efficiencies by way of the upper heating worth, as a result of in a way, that’s form of not honest to the machine.
It’s saying, effectively, you didn’t catch this factor that you just couldn’t presumably catch. We change bases, you turn to the decrease heating worth, and that ignores the warmth of vaporization of water, as if we don’t care about it. And the issue is that, you realize, in power phrases, that’s actual power. There’s actual power in there, and it’s misplaced. We’re not utilizing it as a result of we are able to’t recuperate it, as a result of we’re utilizing the warmth that we produce at too excessive a temperature. So one needs to be very cautious when efficiencies to say, effectively, was that calculated on the upper heating worth or the decrease heating worth? And was the one which we used at the start of the calculation the identical because the one which we used on the finish of the calculation? Or did we change bases between these two issues?
I’ve seen, individuals, together with engineers, screw that up and so they draw incorrect conclusions. So that you’re completely proper. Pure fuel takes power to drill wells, to scrub up the pure fuel, to get it to pipeline spec, to compress it, to transmit it throughout lengthy distances, to get it to someone that wants it, dropping in stress to the purpose the place they begin utilizing it. Most of that compression power is wasted, by the best way, after which we burn it. Then loads of the time we don’t seize the warmth of vaporization or the warmth of condensation of the product water. We’re dropping tons of power. With electrical energy, it’s straightforward. I imply, you feed it right into a resistor, it makes warmth with 100% effectivity, and the transmission losses are across the identical because the transmission of pure fuel.
They’re each about 95% environment friendly when you have a look at North America. They’re fairly comparable. The notion that electrical energy is lossy to maneuver round just isn’t correct. It’s truly fairly environment friendly to maneuver round when you design the distribution system and the transmission system accurately, which we are inclined to do.
MB: Let’s speak about lots of people’s favourite topic, meals and industrial meals preparation. What are the heats which can be largely seen there, and are all of them on this vary? Are they largely on this vary?
PM: Many of the warmth is within the cooking vary, so it’s within the beneath 200 levels C sort vary. Among the warmth in meals preparation is within the frying vary. There we’re simply going to make use of electrical energy on to make warmth, and we are able to produce any frying temperature we would like. Whenever you have a look at industrial heating, as I mentioned, about 40% — spherical numbers — is used beneath 200 levels C, and that features many of the meals processing business.
MB: Folks often ask me, effectively, what am I going to do to dry my chilis sooner or later?
PM: I believe possibly this may be an acceptable time to usher in one other factor. We’ve been speaking about power. We’ve been speaking about joules. We haven’t been speaking about power supply charge, which we name energy. We haven’t been speaking about joules per second or watts. One of many issues that’s just a little bit difficult, and I say just a little bit difficult, however in some instances could be very difficult, is that, pure fuel for example, it’s very straightforward to ship a really giant heating energy to an software. I occur to be working with a startup that I’m an investor in, an advisor to, and so they’re doing loads of heating as a result of what they’re attempting to do is to supply magnesium steel from seawater.
They’ve a laboratory, and their laboratory solely has so many amps {of electrical} service coming in, and therefore, it could actually solely ship a sure variety of kilowatts of energy to the ability. Whenever you need to do one thing, like, as an illustration, warmth up a batch of steel to its melting level in a short time in order that it doesn’t grasp round and have time to oxidize, you want loads of energy. You want loads of kilowatts of power. Delivering that by way of a small electrical line is difficult. Delivering it by way of a relatively small pure fuel line isn’t so difficult. The truth is, you possibly can have a barbecue cylinder and ship, you realize, 100% warmth for a brief time frame if that’s what you need to do.
Typically heating functions are very excessive energy, however very low by way of the overall variety of joules of power which can be delivered. That turns into a little bit of an issue for electrical power.
MB: Properly, I’ll examine and distinction. Per week or two in the past, I used to be , as I’m doing now professionally, the gorgeous drop in battery costs per kilowatt-hour.
PM: Crucial matter, and one which I’m watching very fastidiously myself and with glee, by the best way.
MB: As a battery optimist, I’m shocked.
PM: I’m with out query a battery optimist, similar to you’re.
MB: I’m shocked by the speed of change of drop. Initially of this yr, we had been beneath $100 per kilowatt-hour, which was form of anticipated for 2030. CATL has introduced LFP, lithium iron phosphate batteries, at $56 per kilowatt-hour within the fourth quarter. There are individuals promoting them for $47 per kilowatt-hour in the marketplace.
PM: We’re at manner beneath wholesale costs of uncooked cells. Folks have to grasp that clearly, once you purchase one thing wholesale, you’re speaking about shopping for giant portions of it. However you and I should purchase, as a result of I simply did a pair months in the past, we are able to purchase lithium iron phosphate cells from China, together with supply, for $90 per kilowatt-hour. As a result of we purchased some. We purchased 40 cells, 280 bricks which can be principally a kilowatt-hour of storage every and paid beneath $90 US per kilowatt-hour of battery storage that these batteries signify. That features the fairly costly price of transport them from China to Canada door to door, together with no matter tariffs and taxes are charged alongside the best way. These batteries, I imply, it’s unbelievable what their efficiency, what they may do, what they’re assured to do.
The batteries that we purchased have a assured cycle lifetime of 6000 cycles. And once you do the mathematics on that, up on the farm the place I’m utilizing my portion of that battery order, these batteries are returning each kilowatt-hour that I feed to them for about two and a half US cents per kilowatt-hour plus no matter I need to pay myself curiosity on my funding to purchase them. That’s ridiculous. How less expensive does storage must get than that? And by the best way, it’s getting cheaper. Loads cheaper. I did the mathematics. I really like this, it’s fantastic.
MB: I do know, I’m shocked, however I did the mathematics for heavy highway transportation. One of many topics I’ve spent loads of time on up to now couple of years, and I simply mentioned, okay, effectively it could actually take 5 years to get a 5-megawatt connection for a truck cease as a result of that’s infrastructural change. However at these worth factors, I can put a honking massive battery on there and it’ll pay itself off in 17 months simply with worth arbitrage and nothing else. By no means thoughts the retail price, sale of electrical energy versus the opposite stuff and that for heating.
PM: I’ve obtained buddy who took the vast majority of that battery order that we simply made. He has a photo voltaic set up on his home which supplies him actually fantastic energy in spring and fall, however in the summertime there’s an excessive amount of tree cowl that shades his roof and within the winter he will get snow on his panels and it’s a bit annoying to get it again off once more. And naturally the photo voltaic depth is sort of low. However what he finds his battery most helpful for is that as a result of Ontario, the place I dwell, constructed this big fleet of nuclear energy crops and likewise has all this run-of-river hydropower the place there’s no dam, the place you possibly can retailer power, there’s only a weir.
And the water, you realize, if there’s extra water, it flows over it as a result of we’ve got these sources that you just form of can’t flip off or can’t afford to show off. We’re given electrical energy, and I imply virtually given electrical energy at very low-cost charges at evening. I’m utilizing it to cost my electrical automobile and it’s incredible. It dropped my price of driving to 70 cents per 100 kilometers, by way of power relative to my Prius, which was costing me $7.50 per hundred kilometers for power. In order that’s nice. However what my buddy was all in favour of doing was storing a few of that power at evening and utilizing it through the day to run the fairly giant laborious disk array that he has to maintain spinning on a regular basis, which was costing him a bit of cash.
What he did is he purchased a reasonably large battery and he has a system that appears at day forward, forecasting for whether or not it’s going to be a sunny day or not, and does plenty of calculations after which says, ought to I cost up the battery tonight on low-cost electrical energy from the grid or ought to I not? And look ahead to photo voltaic to return in and fill the battery through the day, after which I’ll bleed that off at evening. He simply has just a little house assistant with some code that in truth, I believe he obtained AI to largely write for him.
MB: ChatGPT writes significantly better code than I ever did.
PM: It does the calculations and it appears to be like at it and says, okay, effectively, listed below are all of the components, right here’s the state of cost of the battery, listed below are {the electrical} costs. It does just a little little bit of math. He got here up with an algorithm. The code was carried out to simply management all of the gadgets. Management is inverted. Management this cost controller, and let’s transfer again from that.
MB: Properly, it’s fascinatingly nerdy. It doesn’t speak about warmth. The massive level right here is that for a few of these factors the place you want loads of energy in a brief time frame, we are able to now put batteries in at a worth level the place it begins to make sense for some functions. However it doesn’t assist as a lot once you want 5 MW of warmth 24/7 or 20 MW of warmth, as a result of you possibly can’t retailer it.
PM: That’s proper.
Within the second half of our dialogue, Paul and I dive into storing warmth for industrial processes and a number of other different key matters.
