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Just lately I hosted Professor Amy Wagoner Johnson, a US supplies scientist who’s main a worldwide analysis mission on coral reef restoration, on my podcast Redefining Vitality – Tech. Within the theme of offering transcripts of displays I’m giving in varied locations for individuals who desire the written phrase, that is the flippantly edited transcript of the second half of our dialog. The primary half, with embedded podcast, is right here.
Michael Barnard (MB): Hello, welcome again to Redefining Vitality Tech. I’m your host, Michael Barnard. My visitor is returning for the second half of our dialogue, and that’s Professor Amy Wagner Johnson, a cloth scientist. She has a day job or three with the landlocked College of Illinois Urbana Champaign, a few hours south of Chicago and 750 miles from the Atlantic. However she’s main a worldwide initiative to revive coral reefs based mostly on her work 3D printing human bone scaffolding and tissues. And that story contains machine studying, wave flumes, and Curacao. Hear in for the second half of our dialog.
We have now one other issue for coral substrates. Let’s speak briefly, synthetic reefs versus pure reefs, as a result of I feel the primary time I grew to become conscious of synthetic reefs was as a consequence of a competitor to IBM. When IBM introduced up its unique private pc, it had a crappy arduous drive, and the competitor, what they did is that they had a commerce in. They provide you a greater arduous drive from them, they usually take the crappy IBM arduous drive, after which they deliberately dump them within the ocean off Boca Raton, Florida, to create a man-made reef. On the time, I believed that was fairly outstanding, good advertising as a result of Boca Raton had the IBM analysis heart in Florida.
Prof. Amy Wagoner Johnson (AWJ): It’s fairly symbolic.
MB: Now, in fact, with my higher information of chemistry and the discussions you and I are having, I’m questioning concerning the chemical substances leaching off these arduous drives and the implications there. I do know that proper now there’s a spot within the Pacific the place outdated tires have been dumped to turn into a man-made reef. However the tires are leaching adverse chemical substances into the native biosphere and creating vital issues. They’ve created an underwater poisonous waste dump versus a vibrant reef. The extra we can assist nature assist itself and reside throughout the constraints of nature, the extra possible we’re to do much less injury.
AWJ: It’s completely true. And once more, that goes again to why, when my colleague and I have been initially fascinated about, oh, let’s 3D print stuff for coral reefs, after which simply needed to take a step again, as a result of even placing concrete within the ocean, it leaches out issues that aren’t good. It may end up in progress of issues that you simply don’t need, reasonably than progress of issues that you simply do need. I’ll point out simply, there was a DARPA name a few years in the past to make big reefs, mainly to guard shorelines close to army bases. The crew I’m working with now did apply, however sadly we didn’t get it. The concept was to construct a dwelling construction, precisely what you’re speaking about. In some sense a man-made reef, however the intent was for it to be a dwelling construction.
How can we type this rapidly and actually get it to populate with wholesome corals and animals that might assist, , create this sustainable and wholesome ecosystem to guard the shoreline. DARPA funds actually dangerous issues they usually like actually on the market initiatives. It was enjoyable to sort of take into consideration these issues. Sadly, we didn’t get it. However that’s okay. Anyone’s engaged on it.
MB: Proper now I’m listening to a number of situations for profitable synthetic reefs from what you’ve shared to date. There must be fractal granular constructions on something you set all the way down to create micro eddies, which permit the cilia for the larvae to connect. It must be an acceptable substance for the larva to connect to calcium carbonate. Sometimes it must have strontium, magnesium, and different hint components in the proper proportions, roughly inward, nonetheless stumbling our solution to understanding what these are. Then it has to have chemical alerts from the flat algae plates that you simply’re speaking about, or one thing comparable from them, some chemical set off. Then it must be in the proper temperature zone of water for the stacked symbiote to work. Then it must be shut sufficient to this, the floor of the water for the. For that to persist, for the photosynthesis to persist. Oh, what a mixture.
I’m going to make a speculation simply because that is sort of enjoyable, proper? I can think about 3D-printing 50 centimeter by 50 centimeter cubes in a lattice with maybe centimeter extensive items, sort of a easy cubic construction, centimeter extensive items with the strontium, the magnesium, and the calcium carbonate because the construction. One thing you’ll be able to stack and drop offshore. I can see two methods to do that, as a result of it’s worthwhile to improve evolution together with the chemical launch of the no matter chemical it’s from a flat algae. However you need to do this nearer to shore and farther from shore from the reef to permit those that occur to be extra warmth immune to populate the near-shore ones and those which can be extra daylight disadvantaged, succesful to populate those farther from shore to assist them migrate a bit.
I feel that’s sort of the place my mind goes now. That is my speculation based mostly upon discussing this with you and a few of the studying I did earlier than prepping for this. The place are you guys truly going? Am I even within the ballpark?
AWJ: Type of.One in all my colleagues is Forest Rohr, and he has an fascinating concept that we’re additionally engaged on with him that is known as arcs, and these are floating constructions. They’re sort of geodesic wanting, the place you would possibly put panels of this materials on this construction, and that materials would permit larvae to settle. You would possibly put some fragmented coral on there. That’s whenever you lower slightly piece of coral off of the colony and glue it to a substrate after which put it elsewhere. And the thought behind these is kind of just like the arc, proper? They’re floating, and so you’ll be able to transfer them to totally different areas relying on the situations.
Let’s say the temperature goes to warmth up. Nicely, you’ll be able to transfer your arc to deeper water, the place the water’s cooler and defend them, or there’s a pollutant that has come out the place the arc is, and you may transfer it to cleaner water. You’ll be able to sort of attempt to populate these arks with totally different species of coral, which could usher in urchins and fish and different issues. That isn’t essentially going to guard the shoreline in the identical manner as a result of they’re floating, proper? They are often, and they might be anchored, however they’d transfer round and never essentially serve that position of defending the shoreline, however nonetheless be slightly cellular ecosystem that might be used to attempt to keep some wholesome reef, however to permit it to be moved to safer locations when there’s menace.
That’s one path that the crew I’m working with goes that’s totally different from, , printing blocks of this materials and placing it across the shoreline. However I feel that, truthfully, I feel that there’s a lot that must be thought of on this. I feel we actually have to come back at it from all instructions as a result of it’s such an advanced drawback, and it’s actually an essential drawback. Very sophisticated, crucial. We’d like all scientific disciplines contributing to this.
MB: Again to the geodesic dome. What I hear you say is that it’s positively buoyant not floating on the floor, so floating under the floor, as a result of then you definitely’ve obtained in the proper, you may get into the proper temperature zone slightly decrease, the proper sunshine zone slightly increased, and you may then do this. The geodesic dome, in fact — yay, Buckminster Fuller — is the strongest construction you’ll be able to create with minimal supplies. Significantly better than the dice that I counsel for stacking. Geodesic domes are horrible for stacking, however they’re nice bodily constructions. That’s a extremely fascinating sort of conceptual aquaculture reef.
AWJ: Sure.
MB: It’s nonetheless creating the habitat for the biodiversity. It’s nonetheless preserving an amazing quantity of that facet of the reef. Nevertheless it’s not creating the shoreline safety facet. One of many issues I spent a whole lot of time a few years in the past working with Pure Sources Canada, was the implications for shorelines with will increase in storm surge, with will increase in cyclonic exercise globally, with will increase in sea stage. We will’t harden the shores. We have now to re-soften them, which runs into political issues, as a result of, in fact, wealthy folks with shoreline stuff don’t need to hear that they’ve to maneuver away from the shoreline. They only need to know, how are you going to guard my seaside?
AWJ: Sure, sure.
MB: Shaggy dog story. A set of wealthy householders in California obtained collectively and spent hundreds of thousands of {dollars} on placing new sand on their seaside. 5 days later, it had all washed away in a storm. Individuals who simply weren’t listening to the truth of the state of affairs. The politics round coastal hardening and prosperous communities and your infrastructure versus coastal softening and retreat are fascinating to look at play out globally. And coral reefs are a part of that. It’s actually fascinating.
AWJ: If I can simply return to the geodesic dome. These are made with struts, in order that they’re not plates on there, so the water can move via. Though you may cowl a few of the holes, however these might be put collectively in sort of Lego model, much like the blocks, and related so as to begin to construct that shoreline. I feel that there have been some research that present that having one thing that’s not absolutely blocking the water is healthier than simply having like, a concrete wall that the wave slams into. A construction like this would offer a few of that sort of openness that a few of the water might move via, nevertheless it wouldn’t be like slamming right into a brick wall.
For the time being, we don’t have plans to sort of do these connecting constructions and placing them on the underside of the ocean, however that may be a chance sooner or later. simply needed to say that earlier than we moved on.
MB: I’ll say if the oil and gasoline business was truly a superb participant on the planet, all their subsea engineering abilities could be nice for constructing synthetic constructions that elevated the seafloor to the proper stage of temperature within the ocean and stuff, and put a man-made reef on prime of that. Simply saying, however not going to occur. The oil and gasoline business is retrenching to their core. They’re going to extract the final barrel and cubic meter of pure gasoline they will and promote it for the very best value they will, and that’s what they’ve turn into.
AWJ: Agreed.
MB: We’ve talked about micro scale. We’re speaking about millimeter scale right here, and that is very small. We’ve been speaking about some meso scale issues just like the half meter or meter sq. dice idea that I simply got here up with, which is a lot better articulated as a geodesic dome of struts. These are smaller scale constructions. However let’s speak concerning the scale. Do you occur to have the scale of the good barrier reefs or one of many different nice barrier reefs? The mass, the amount, simply the sheer space?
AWJ: I don’t have a quantity, however I do know it may be seen from satellite tv for pc. That claims as huge as many nations.
MB: I’m going to cheat. So the Nice Barrier Reef, Google is our good friend for this. Virtually 350,000 km². That’s greater than many nations. Quantity. Do I’ve a quantity assertion? Okay, I’ve obtained hectares. Sure, nice barrier, 400 forms of coral, 1500 species of fish, 4000 forms of mollusk.
AWJ: It’s unbelievable.
MB: I’m stunned that I can’t discover the mass in kilograms. Big, big space. It’s one of many nice wonders of the world, pure wonders of the world, and going via vital bleaching. Once we say 350,000 km², now, the corals I’ve tended to see have been pretty, in pretty shallow water, amenable for scuba diving or snorkeling, as a result of, , I might snorkel within the Caribbean. I’m not a scuba diver. So do you may have any sense of how thick a coral is prime to backside, like the peak of a coral?
AWJ: Once we dive in Curacao, and simply full disclosure, I might not name myself a diver by any means. I’ve a postdoc who works on this mission in my lab, and he goes and does all of the diving. It’s like, don’t let the professor within the lab sort of factor. Professors break stuff within the lab. However I did do it a few occasions. And a few of the core corals that we have been have been sort of, , these train balls that you simply sit on, they’re sort of like that. A few of them have been like that, some slightly smaller, some slightly greater. A number of the corals that we have been have been about that measurement. They have been principally not encrusting corals and never branching corals, however reasonably these sort of stony coral sorts. A few of them have been remoted and a few of them have been close to different colonies.
MB: My expertise with corals was some snorkeling in a cove in Hawaii and a few snorkeling within the Caribbean. The corals I noticed have been half a meter to 2 meters, sort of the vary of top. We have now 350,000 km² with maybe a meter thick. You recognize, that’s 350 billion cubic meters [bad math on the top of my head in discussion replaced with actual math] of fabric that stretches 1000 or 1500 kilometers. It’s a non trivial engineering process to even contemplate it on the scale it exists.
AWJ: Completely.
MB: We’ve been speaking about this millimeter scale, and this will get again to 3D printing. You’re a mechanical engineer, you’re in a mechanical engineering division. You most likely had expertise with the very first deposition 3D printers. You’ve most likely labored with CNC machines sooner or later in your profession. Earlier than they grew to become standard, you have been most likely taking part in with them and definitely had them round. You’re aware of how lengthy it takes for deposition printing to do stuff. And since you’re a nerd, you’ve most likely hung out fascinated about nanotechnologies and nano constructing constructions and the way lengthy that might take on the atomic and molecular stage for something to show into something even seen. And that is sort of the stuff we’re speaking about.
We’re speaking about machines, organic machines the scale of rice that construct 350,000 km², huge offshore constructions over 1000’s of years.
AWJ: It’s loopy. It’s unbelievable.
MB: Each time I begin exploring points of it, it’s actually obvious most individuals by no means hassle to have a look at the maths by way of the size. It’s actually difficult. Your crew has hung out wanting on the scale. How lengthy will it take for a man-made reef to accrete enough polyps to turn into successfully a pure reef, even with the geodesic dome idea you may have?
AWJ: That’s an important query. The Nice Barrier Reef, I feel there’s a quantity that’s like a number of hundred thousand years that took to make. I don’t assume we have now to make nice Barrier reefs. I feel we will make pockets of reefs that can have possibly smaller ecosystems, however that may profit the native space.
How lengthy does it take? I feel it’s a troublesome query since you’re always battling illness and pollution. I might say like a decade for a totally wholesome reef, however I’m simply throwing a quantity on the market as a result of you’ll be able to’t simply have one kind of coral rising. We work on a few totally different species, and a few work higher than others.
If you happen to simply develop one species, that’s not going to be enough for the ecosystem. I don’t know. I hate to even say, nevertheless it’s not in a single season and it’s not in 5 seasons.
MB: I am going again to the voyage of the Beagle, Darwin and Galapagos islands, and his differentiation of finches on totally different islands, relying upon the scale of the nuts that have been there. I can see, , clearly the microclimates inside a reef will favor totally different species of corals.
AWJ: Sure.
MB: The open water basketball corals are very in a different way branching, huge construction corals. Let me ask this query otherwise. I’m fascinated about black fly lifecycles. Fruit flies are utilized in genetic testing as a result of they complete lifecycles in 24 hours. How lengthy does a polyp final? How lengthy does a larvae take to construct a polyp? What’s the lifespan of a polyp?
AWJ: I can let you know that once we gather the gametes they usually flip into the larvae and both die or settle inside a few weeks. Once they settle, they flip right into a polyp, a single polyp. We don’t know whether or not they kind of begin, I’ll say, like, amassing the supplies once they’re larvae which can be used to construct the skeleton. There’s proof of getting slightly little bit of skeleton very early. These polyps don’t simply develop radially. Slightly polyp doesn’t simply turn into like an enormous polyp. It divides, then there are a number of polyps. You would possibly begin with one polyp in your substrate, and a 12 months later, possibly there’s 4 or 5 polyps on the substrate, and it kind of begins to develop laterally.
How lengthy does a single polyp reside? These reefs live 1000’s and 1000’s of years, and I’m certain a few of these polyps are long-lived.
MB: Does the larvae, the dwelling a part of the polyp, have a brief lifespan, after which the construction will get reinhabited by one other larvae? Is that one thing that happens?
AWJ: No, I don’t assume so. Let’s say you had a colony, and a few diver got here in and kicked it and knocked off a few of the polyps or injured the polyps. Some area of that colony, meter-sized colony, breaks off or will get an harm, after which that portion of it dies and falls off. What would occur there may be the polyps within the surrounding space would divide and begin to cowl that new space. It’s not going that, , larvae would come and land precisely there except there was some help.
You would help that by, for instance, whenever you seize your gametes, you may carry them over to that colony, and you may tent that colony and launch your larvae in there, and that might kind of lure them and kind of pressure them to land there. But when it’s a unique species, then these two species would possibly combat and kill one another. It must be larvae from the identical species and possibly even the identical colony. I feel it’s extra possible that the dwelling polyps would unfold over that space that was broken by one thing else.
MB: This does counsel that coral, which has been bleached and died, one of many strategies for restoring it might be to get the gametes and larvae tent the bleached stuff and launch the larvae in there, they usually might repopulate the reef. You’re nodding your head. That is my speculation. Is that this truly one thing that’s being explored, to your information?
AWJ: There’s a gaggle that does this comparable analysis at Carmabi lab. What they’ve completed is that they’ve created bins in one of many bays there in Curacao, they usually put a bunch of their substrates in them. They’re several types of substrates, they usually put a bunch of these substrates within the bin, after which they put larvae in there and sort of tent it to attempt to get the larvae to settle in these bins. I’m undecided how profitable that’s been.
We have now tried and are going to repeat the place we tent the arc, the geodesic dome, have substrates in there, gather the larvae, and put them within the geodesic dome and tent it to attempt to get all these larvae to settle. So it’s not completely clear, like, how profitable that will probably be. You continue to need to have the proper situations.
If the larvae are sniffing round they usually don’t just like the odor, then you’ll be able to’t pressure them to settle there. You continue to have to know, what are the situations which can be conducive to the larvae settling? These juvenile polyps are actually susceptible to different issues which may come and settle adjoining and develop over them, or possibly a parrot fish will come and munch on them. If it’s a single polyp, then it’s completed. If it’s a colony it will possibly afford to lose a pair polyps from a parrot fish or anyone kicking the colony, or regardless of the insult is likely to be.
MB: I’m simply fascinated about, , again to that train ball scale globular factor. That’s most likely hundreds of thousands or a whole lot of 1000’s of particular person polyps.
AWJ: I by no means thought of estimating the variety of them, however, I imply, it’s loads, proper?
They’re totally different sizes as effectively. So we’re making an attempt to have a look at the expansion fee of polyps that settled on our substrates, and we’re nonetheless going via that knowledge from a few 12 months in the past. We settled the larvae on substrates, and we put them in some tanks at Carmabi, this lab in Curacao, the place we do a few of our fieldwork. Then we had an intern who got here and would preserve them clear. He’d go in and he’d brush off any unhealthy stuff to sort of defend this single polyp on this substrate. Then we measured them, like, each month, and it’s fairly sluggish. We’ll let once we’re completed compiling the information. However I can let you know that it’s fairly sluggish.
You need them to turn into mature sufficient in order that whenever you put them out within the water, that they’ll be capable to take a few of the insults that they’d be uncovered to.
MB: Again to the lifecycle. There’s a few weeks for the larvae, then there’s an prolonged time frame as a polyp. Think about that the child, teenage, and middle-aged years? When do they turn into a young person? How lengthy earlier than they’re in a position to reproduce? When have they got a house that’s truly secure? It sounds prefer it’s greater than a 12 months, to make sure.
AWJ: It most likely, once more, varies by species and situations, however I’m undecided once they turn into sexually mature. However sure, it’s not like rodents or rabbits. It’s tons longer than that.
MB: They’re constructing their skeleton round them on the skin from stuff. They’re straining ions from the ocean.
AWJ: It’s sort of beneath. It’s like slightly dumpling. Once they first settle, you may have this larva that’s sort of like a delicate grain of rice, sort of elongated. Some are slightly bit extra spherical, however then it sort of units one finish down after which shrinks down and varieties. It appears to be like like slightly dumpling. Then they begin growing little tentacles. And the tentacles are at first, little brief and stubby tentacles, like, , like toddlers. Their proportions are sort of brief and stubby. These brief and stubby tentacles develop longer, relying on the species. Once they sit their backside down and make this dumpling after which begin forming tentacles, they’re constructing a skeleton, they usually’re constructing it beneath them, after which via the partitions of the dumpling.
They’ve these septae that sort of divide it. If you happen to slice an orange transversely and also you see these septae that separate the boats of the orange. It’s sort of like that. They’ve these skeletal partitions, however additionally they have sort of a skeletal pedestal that they’re on, after which the delicate tissue surrounds that.
MB: Okay. I feel I used to be mistaking them for one of many species, which truly retreats inside its shell, however they encompass the carbonaceous materials far more. They constructed the pedestal. They construct a skeleton, and it’s a construction, after which they presumably die sooner or later. Then one thing else, one other larvae, is available in and builds one other skeleton on prime of the outdated skeleton. It grows and grows. And it’s not very fast.
AWJ: No, under no circumstances.
MB: To summarize, for tens of 1000’s of years reefs develop in tropical waters avoiding glaciation. The Nice Barrier Reef persevered through the interval of glaciation. They’ve advanced for a selected set of temperatures, salinity, alkalinity, set of chemical parts within the water, a set of symbiotic species stacked within the case of the polyps, with the algae contained in the abdomen of the polyp. They’re a kind of built-in symbiotic programs versus aspect by aspect symbiotic programs. Presumably they’ve a symbiotic relationship of some stage with the mat algae.
They need to have the proper hint components of strontium, magnesium, they need to have the proper temperature, they need to have the proper diploma of daylight so as to construct these constructions that take a really very long time to construct. Now we’re altering every part round them in a really brief time frame they usually can’t adapt as a result of they aren’t free floating.
Let’s briefly take an instance. Birds are considerably in danger as a consequence of local weather change, however they’re some of the cellular species on this planet. In a lot of their circumstances, they will simply transfer slightly bit north, slightly bit south, slightly bit east, slightly bit west, fairly organically. It’s simply not the identical for reefs.
AWJ: No, under no circumstances. By no means.
MB: We solely have a pair minutes left. I need to be respectful of your time. Fascinating dialog. I might fortunately delve into all types of nerdy stuff with you, however there may be one extra query after which the open ended factor.
What’s the most important aha second you’ve had on this mental journey over the previous six or seven years?
AWJ: Nicely, I can let you know the primary one was on the convention that I went to with my colleague Andrew Lean, who we work with on 3D printing. I used to be all excited. We’re simply going to 3D-print these supplies they usually’re going to go within the reef and it’s going to be superior and we’re going to make an enormous distinction.
Then I discovered about what fragging is and the way they lower one thing off they usually glue it to the substrate. Then there’s this interface of glue between the coral and the substrate. And so I used to be like, I don’t even assume, like, what are we even going to do? There’s glue there they usually’re caught on there. They’re not even interacting with the fabric. How will we take into consideration what the fabric means in that case?
Then I discovered concerning the larvae and I used to be like, that’s the place we will assault this by considering extra concerning the larvae. However I feel there are different issues you are able to do. You’ll be able to design supplies to sit down subsequent to the reef to launch chemical substances or change the ph or gather pollution or issues like that. It doesn’t solely need to be that you’ve a substrate for a larva to sit down on. I feel there are many different thrilling prospects to make use of supplies in methods that can enhance the well being of the reef.
MB: This has been wonderful. You might have a worldwide, nerdy viewers. I get folks from each continent listening in, and they’re centered on local weather options. They’re centered on nerdy know-how and the cash and scale of the issue. You might have no matter size of time you need to say, no matter you need to them. What would you prefer to share?
AWJ: I might say that I feel it is a scientific drawback, that we actually want folks from all disciplines to lean in and attempt to contribute to this as a result of, , we’ve talked about supplies, we’ve talked about all totally different elements of biology. We didn’t even discuss microbiology, and we didn’t discuss genetics and we didn’t discuss cryopreservation. These are all areas the place folks can contribute. For cryopreservation we might use engineers who perceive warmth switch. I feel engineers can play an enormous position, however we have now to work with the biologists, we have now to work with one another. Just about many elements of engineering, many elements of biology can contribute to this.
The extra groups we have now arising with artistic concepts in what we will do, I feel we have now a greater probability of addressing the issue in order that we will save the reefs.
MB: Amy, it’s been a pleasure. Thanks a lot.
AWJ: Thanks a lot. This has been actually enjoyable. Thanks a lot.
MB: I’m Michael Bernard, host of Redefining Vitality Tech. My visitor immediately has been physician Amy Johnson Wagner, supplies scientist, who’s for the previous six or seven years been determining what it’s going to take to avoid wasting the reefs from us. That’s it for immediately. Till subsequent time.
